The Agent of Desire forum pages http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/index.php Sun, 20 May 2012 18:16:36 -0700 Phorum 5.2.7 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,17,24#msg-24 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,17,24#msg-24
It has always been my personal experience that women do tend to be like this in groups... Even a group of drunken women on a hen night will begin to govern themselves according to the principles of intellegence, charisma, wit, originality, courage, decisiveness as they navigate the streets and decide what to do next to make the best night - they don't follow what the youngest/prettiest/most high-maintenance member of the group says.

Although I do know what you mean that some groupings of females can seem really sexist, repressed and repressive - barely daring to eat in front of eachother for fear of being bitched about, barely daring to move or express anything apart from banality in case it comes across as 'unfeminine'.. yet I think this behaviour would not last long in the continued absence of men.... Eventually decisions would need to be made, etc ... someone would need to step up - take the lead!

Thanks again for your comments!

AoD xxx]]> moderator Agent of Desire Thu, 22 May 2008 09:28:11 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,17,23#msg-23 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,17,23#msg-23 i just wonder about the 'group of women' you refer to in the beginning of the article - this would indeed be a lovely group of women, none of whom 'pedal' the sexist ideals, because unless these women are able to adopt a sense of objectivity about how they have internalised this sexism, being in a group with them would be just as bad as being with a group of sexist men (even more hurtful somehow).
having said that, i know i am able to let go of my internalised sexism (and have friends that can) when with other women (and non-sexist men!) - so this can be done, even if 'outside the room' it is 'business as usual' (so to speak).]]> Jessica Agent of Desire Wed, 21 May 2008 05:52:14 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,22,22#msg-22 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,22,22#msg-22 moderator Agent of Desire Sun, 11 May 2008 04:44:57 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,21,21#msg-21 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,21,21#msg-21 moderator Agent of Desire Wed, 30 Apr 2008 03:03:05 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,20,20#msg-20 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,20,20#msg-20 moderator Agent of Desire Thu, 24 Apr 2008 15:25:44 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,19#msg-19 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,19#msg-19
xxx]]> moderator Agent of Desire Tue, 22 Apr 2008 08:49:21 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,18,18#msg-18 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,18,18#msg-18 moderator Agent of Desire Mon, 21 Apr 2008 06:17:41 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,17,17#msg-17 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,17,17#msg-17 moderator Agent of Desire Sun, 20 Apr 2008 00:53:52 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,16,16#msg-16 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,16,16#msg-16
How do you feel women dressing up and men dressing down correlates to the objectification of women in general?]]> moderator Agent of Desire Sun, 20 Apr 2008 00:52:45 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,15#msg-15 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,15#msg-15 completely agree about assumptions of female behaviour in patriarchal world - definately of the opinion that it gives to much credit to patriarchy to say that everything we do is driven by it/reaction to it. recognition and understanding of it as an oppresive system is what allow us to achieve independence from it, and hoorah for feminism and feminists who do this more and more in that respect!]]> Jessica Agent of Desire Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:43:40 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,14#msg-14 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,14#msg-14
Perhaps its the self-examination inherant in feminism that makes you feel trapped... but isn't self-examination the 'cross' that every nice person has to bear? You know - checking ourselves for unconscious racism, etc. As for enjoying wearing a bit of 'slap' etc, I think it would be really interesting to look at it more closely... Perhaps asking ourselves - do I get the urge to kind of 'drag' up when I'm ovulating? Perhaps I get the urge to dress up more when I'm visiting old school friends, etc? Perhaps I'm feeling angry and just want to cock-tease for a bit a power-trip? Maybe I'm feeling down and want to 'paint on' a happy face? The present knowlege we have about women's dressing up is totally viewed through the filter of patriarchy - i.e - We do it to invite sexual attention from men. But this could well be total bollocks, just like the majority of assumptions about of female behaviour in our patriarchal world. Until we really examine our own motivations for doing what we do, there will be no greater understanding of what motivates us as women. So I suppose what I mean is... don't fight it, examine it and share it! Its all valuable knowledge for the feminist cause.

AoD xx]]> moderator Agent of Desire Sat, 19 Apr 2008 02:19:55 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,13#msg-13 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,13#msg-13 It is indeed a good exercise that I wish all women would try - you realise the power available to you (in terms of how good you can feel about yourself, you can laugh down at a media/men who make you feel like shit for being the way that you are) when you subvert the gender rules.
I find real freedom comes when there is no anxiety attached to how I look - I can dress up/down whatever, and feel good but ultimately realise it for what it is, a bunch of clothes! (and maybe some slap if you are me - i know, shock horror what a bad feminist I am!).
I think the key is in removing yourself from the implied importance of how you look (goes for guys also of course) and finding something beyond this which allows you to connect with people as humans. This is all beginning to sound really obvious - but is interesting in terms of people realising that feminism is essentially a humanism, which I think lots of people forget/dont realise (many people I know - women and men, dont think feminism is relevant to thier lives but this is one of the ways in which it is). Ok, maybe you lost me there...I think I did!

An interesting conflict for me as a feminist is that sometimes it makes me feel more liberated than I could ever have imagined and at other times (more often than not these days I'm afraid to say) more trapped. At these times I feel, 'yes, ignorance is bliss....'

I do gallop off into tangents dont I? Its just really good to be able to express my thoughts in an arena I know they will be understood and accepted - I'm afraid I am 'ahead' to put it arrogantly, of most of my friends and family when it comes to these issues and feel like I am lecturing/being dramatic whenever I come to talk about it....

Jess]]> Jessica Agent of Desire Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:36:50 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,12#msg-12 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,12#msg-12
Thanks so much for your comments. Glad to hear that you are already out there doing it!

I agree it that the ideal is that we can both be the object and agent at once. I suppose the point of the exercise is for women to feel powerful and confident without needing the approval of admiration (being objectified), so they can see how easy it is to turn the patriarchal polarisation of female object/male agent on its head. The ideal would be for a women to dress as sexily as they wish without feeling that she is betraying feminist principles, but there is a safety issue if she starts playing the sex agent dressed like that. Because she will be drawing attention to herself by looking sexy, then giving off the vibes of a sex agent too, the chances are that she'll arouse male anger. They are likely think "she's leading me on" or "she's giving off the signals, but not giving out the goods". I know it's excessive but I don't want any women to get verbally abused or at worse physically attacked/raped as a result of doing "the sex agent". Unfortunately patriarchy has created a climate of male entitlement to female bodies (obviously this isn't pointing the finger at 'all' men), and the widening proliferation of pornography also suggests women are objects for male pleasure, so there is a wider issue here of sexual consent/coersion implied. If you look at how shockingly low rape convictions are, its obvious that female sexual agency is not understood at all at the moment and really needs to be openly explored and discussed for all our safety.

Its important for women to feel this contradiction/dilemma about looking sexy and constantly question herself as to what percentage she is object and what percentage she is agent. It is a very difficult balance to strike because the media is always trying to knock you off balance to sell you more stupid products. Its important that women don't end up feeling like the 'empty shell' like some overly ornate faberge egg, with a big void of meaning in the middle. Feeling good, inwardly confident, proud of your hidden womb as a source of personal power and intitled to choose, that is the aim. The female sex agent exercise is always available to every woman if she has gone from feeling empowered to feeling down-trodden by the pressure to 'look good' all the time. Women need to be reminded that they are entitled to so much more than simply looking ornamental!

Love & peace
AoD xx]]> moderator Agent of Desire Fri, 18 Apr 2008 01:25:54 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,11#msg-11 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,11#msg-11 I do struggle with the idea that if I dress in a way that is attractive to men, that it is for thier benefit - this is giving them too much heed in my opinion. I think the best way is to dress as you feel sexy/good - I recognise that this may often mean fitting the feminine ideal (intentionally or not), but to control what you wear to make sure it doesnt fit the ideal, seems another way that as women we are controlled in what we do.

Dont get me wrong - I completely see that you are not suggesting that with this article and that you pose it as an experiment! I jsut get a bit carried away with this subject as it is something I find fscinating, and to be honest, struggle with on a daily basis - I feel I look good, and maybe I fit some stereotypes! but should I dress differently to fulfill my feminist ideals and accept feeling not so god about myself? I think life is too short for that! although i do sometimes feel guilty because of this.....

I would be really interested to hear your views on this - as you can see, I have a bit of a chip on my shoulder about it.....

Thanks for this article, I really look forward to reading the rest of the website,
Jess]]> Jessica Agent of Desire Wed, 16 Apr 2008 13:26:20 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,10#msg-10 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,10,10#msg-10 moderator Agent of Desire Mon, 07 Apr 2008 15:54:34 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,9,9#msg-9 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,9,9#msg-9 moderator Agent of Desire Sun, 06 Apr 2008 17:54:52 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,8,8#msg-8 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,8,8#msg-8 moderator Agent of Desire Sun, 06 Apr 2008 17:49:01 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,7,7#msg-7 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,7,7#msg-7
Which celebrities that are not sold to you as a sex symbol get you going and why?

Let's get an interesting picture of what our sexuality is really saying beneath the indoctrination.]]> moderator Agent of Desire Sun, 06 Apr 2008 17:30:33 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,5,5#msg-5 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,5,5#msg-5 Leave your reply here...]]> moderator Agent of Desire Sun, 06 Apr 2008 16:54:28 -0700 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,4,4#msg-4 http://www.agentofdesire.com/phorum-5.2.7/read.php?3,4,4#msg-4 moderator Agent of Desire Sun, 06 Apr 2008 16:41:47 -0700